Dr. Frédéric Leroy | The Food Control Cult, Anti-Meat Elite, & The Frankenfood Industrial Complex

00:00 These days, so many podcast hosts just riff through unprepared segments until they get to the next ad break for pills they know nothing about. Cheap razors and whatever else they can get a buck from but The Hiresite Chats does it differently We succeed or fail on the quality of the content and your desire to hear more of it. So you're about to hear another free first hour episode that's here to prove that two-hour shows are worth subscribing for! Five shows a month for just $8

00:38 Members get a mobile friendly website, a decade of archives, a dedicated RSS feed for the best podcast apps and a lot deeper discussion that a single hour can allow for. Sponsor free with more for thee! Get a free seven day trial of THC Plus at TheHigherSideChats.com Enjoy In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a- I'm Greg Carlwood

01:33 These are the higher side chats. Let them eat cake, people! How we doing out there? From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and it's easy to take for granted but there are a few topics more important or more multi-dimensional than what we eat In much simpler times when we lived off the land, the answer was pretty simple. We eat what we can and what's around but industrialization complicated the question of what even qualifies as food? And high society has held our diet up to examine it through spiritual moral and philosophical lenses whether you like their conclusions or not. We know food control and food quality have always been factors in conversations of class and power as well as major elements in wartime strategy and colonization

02:17 And these are the things we must consider when food factories are catching fire or exploding at a suspiciously high rate, livestock is being killed en masse over one PCR test for pig disease or bird flu, cows are being scapegoated for rampant corporate pollution and multinational billionaire think tanks and interlocking organizations are making it very clear that their plan to create a more sustainable—and of course more profitable world is to completely eradicate traditional food sources and make sure everyone globally is eating factory-made frankenmeat and subpar products produced by their corporate lab food friends. Call it an attack, a hostile takeover or just crony capitalism at work. But there is good argument to be made that this very well might be the most important struggle of our lifetimes because the consequences of these food policy police being successful are quite scary and yet so many people are blissfully unaware

03:12 Well, here to break it all down is Dr. Frederic Lerat one of the most knowledgeable and highly qualified experts in the food field that I could find He's a Food Scientist Technologist and Professor at the University of Brussels specializing in the science and application of animal foods in society and nutrition with a research background in bacterial communities and fermented foods human and animal health food studies and food traditions He is the president of the Belgian Association of Meat Science and Technology, and Belgian Society for Food Microbiology. And he also serves on the scientific board of The World Farmers Organization among other non-profits and academic boards. His accomplishments know no bounds, the food science educator anti meat agenda exposer and corporate food tech truth teller Dr. Frederic Lera thank you so much for being here. Most welcome that was quite introduction thank you

04:05 Well, this is a real honor. I do feel like a bit of a phony doing the accent but you know...I gotta take a stab at it and you know really the food issues of our day are some of the most important to me so to have you here is a real treat! I tried to do your bio justice but your accolades and accomplishments are pretty vast To kick this off talk to us a bit more about your background background and resume, as well as where you started to notice there was a problem or dare I say campaign against meat from the top down. Right? Well it goes back to my interest in food that started

04:42 triggered while I was studying bioengineering sciences. Now, bioengineering sciences is a quite unique study in Belgium combining all sorts of different approaches to science as long as they involve biology and combine biology so living matter or living organisms with technology. So that could be environmental technology wastewater treatments or agricultural sciences, cellular approaches and immunology. You name it all sorts of different things but also food science and technology within the direction that I picked which was the chemistry part so within chemistry I became interested in food technology and nutrition. I did a master thesis on Food and Nutrient Security

05:31 in Africa and after that I did a PhD in rather different field which was hardcore engineering of food processes and applying mathematical modeling to simulate what is going on with respect to food safety, and food quality. In fermented animals or foods particularly meat so that it was just a case study right? It was just my case study And at the time of my PhD, which was in the early years of the century I was working on food and it wasn't all that spectacularly controversial. At least not as it became afterwards So because of my interest in animal sourced foods which only grew and also became a generalist in the field of animal production

06:24 I was confronted more and more with journalists, media discourse and all sorts of things being claimed about my topic of expertise. Animal source foods that just didn't make sense. I know how animal source foods are produced, how they're transformed what they mean biochemically speaking for health what the different potential harms are that can be caused but also the benefits And I was only hearing very hyperbolic exaggerated claims about how meat is destroying the planet and our health, and how it's incredibly bad for the animals. It makes biodiversity collapse... All different kinds of apocalyptic stories that basically we should end livestock agriculture to save the planet and everybody on it

07:14 And that was so fascinating that the foods that I was studying and also the foods that have always been valued very much by our ancestors for many reasons, those foods suddenly were transformed from being very benign and very valued, very cherished food to foods that were vilified and presented as extremely harmful. Now there must be a reason for that and it just doesn't happen like this out of the blue especially also because in the past every type of vegan or vegetarian discourse was in the margins of society, it was never taken seriously and why would it? Because who would support that and now it's all over the place. So it's clearly being pushed and I wanted to find out why that is the case so to do so what I did is I collaborate or started collaborations with

08:11 specialists in the field of history and psychology and consumer sciences, anthropology trying to figure out what was going on with the societal change with respect to meat. And at the end meat is just one of them I focus a lot on me because it's probably the most controversial and symbolic of all foods but it's a larger problem It has to do with new ways that people look at food circles want to transform the food system in radical ways and use all sorts of different means and strategies to get there.

08:48 Well, that is a great introductory summary. And to talk about the history of the billionaire class trying to control the diets of people and demonizing meat I've heard you take this campaign back to The Club Of Rome in 1968 where David Rockefeller was one of three founders We have The Rockefeller Commission Report in 1969 meant to look ahead to the year 2000 that talked about these same food goals we hear from the World Economic Forum Talk to us about some of this history that kind of got us to this place where we are now, because they've been talking about this for a long time. It just seems like lately it's really been ramped up. Yes, yeah that's absolutely true despite the fact that I was mentioning that it's a very recent phenomenon and that we would really confronted with is only over the last let's say seven eight years to the extent that we're facing it now but it's true that goes back much further in time

09:46 It was more under the surface, but the general layout was already in place. Actually it goes back even further than the late 1960's You could say that it goes back to the 19th century especially the second part of the 19th century where you had... The first ideas about how.. well To be fair, there's a historical track record that even goes beyond that. And it's important to see the whole picture here because otherwise people focus too much on certain interests and players and it's a very broad dynamic that is really in the societal tissue of... It's a complicated pattern so let me try to clarify as simply I can do that

10:31 If you look at animal source foods and red meat in particular, throughout history there are anecdotal but the historical anecdotes that say that some people have were not willing to eat those foods. And it was usually in a context of purity and religion and trying to get through those self-cleaning ways even self-denial, so ascetism in general. So it was always those religious fractions that were very much Puritan and trying to get away from the earthly

11:08 dirtiness and filth. That has been the essence, and you can find examples in ancient Greece Pythagoras for instance was vegetarian didn't eat meat but he connected that to reincarnation for instance it was about purity and religion but I wasn't very much in the margin then in the 19th century those religious ideas materialized in so-called Bible Christians and they come from the Swedenborgian Church, which was again a very mystical mystic kind of religion with all sorts of bizarre theories. And the Bible Christians were vegetarians and they developed a new form of community or religious community and exported that to the United States and also brought it to other places but I started in England and then in New England mainly in US

11:58 This gave birth to the first vegetarian societies and they were originally very much using religious arguments of purity. The Seventh-day Adventists were brought into that movement as well, and Ellen White, the prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventist, she was saying that red meat is sinful you shouldn't eat it because it creates sexual lusts and then you should avoid it by all means especially children... And from all those religious ideas at some point, they connected this to medical discourse. And that happened because of people like Sylvester Graham but also Kellogg. John Harvey Kellogg was a seven-day Adventist and he came from that school but he was also a progressive scientist in a way. He was very connected to all sorts of therapies water therapies and

12:49 But he carried those seven-day Adventist beliefs with him. So even if he developed cornflakes, that was because cornflakes originally was a very bland food that would cool the body so that people don't become agitated and they wouldn't be attracted to or they wouldn't fall for lust and all sinful behaviors. But then his brother, Adam Huger and the whole thing went in different directions but originally his ideas came from Seventh-day Adventists but he also connected those to medical discourse one of his prodigies was one of the main founders of the American Dietetic Association and from there on The Seventh Day Adventist influenced dietary discourse since the early days of the dietary movement it was then connected through progressive agendas in general

13:37 socialism was developing and socialists were very often also vegetarians. They were using vegetarianism as an expression of being progressive, and being a good citizen, and being a rightful citizen... And not eating red meat became how could you say that? It became moral behavior it's an expression of moral behavior so it has this connotation of being a moral thing to do since the early days and then it infiltrated health discourse and nutrition sciences, and it was presented as the healthy model very early on. And it hasn't really changed much

14:14 Newer nutrition sciences build on that ancient idea, or more older idea that meat is part of unhealthy diets and people should mainly eat whole grains and nuts. And essentially that traces back to those early notions of the Garden-Of-Eden diet at The Seventh Day Adventist. So then you have to make a little jump in time because that dynamic was somehow interrupted by the World Wars and then people were concerned about more urgent pressing things The only thing that still happened there was in 1917 at the end of the First World War, there was a big campaign from the government. From the Food Administration to reduce the eating of red meat in the United States because the red meat had to be shipped to Europe

14:59 to support the troops and to support the European populations that were hungry. And it just happened to be that red meat was one of those foods you could ship easily as conservers in different manners, but it was one of the pragmatic things to do so Americans had to eat less so others could eat more. That was purely economical logistic but it still connected with those ideas being a moral food right? But now it's also coming from government And that's the first layer, you know. That's the first layer within society It is good not to eat red meat and government tells you to do so and you'll be a good citizen if you do that So there is an ideological religious basis there There is a pragmatic logistic element and then you get to what you mentioned before The late 1960s and that's when the technocratic movements came forward And it's especially in this slipstream of Club of Rome and Rockefeller clan

15:56 You mentioned the report of the American population and growth of American population, and the Malthusian panic about increasing populations decreasing resources. And stepping in and trying to fix that so experts had to design the most optimal way for the planet to behave so that we would avoid catastrophe. That's what The Club Of Rome did with its limits-to-growth report. Within those first reports coming from those people they mentioned already synthetic meats We're talking about the late 1960s. In 1969, in one of the reports you'll find the terminology of synthetic meats already back then and they were talking about closed systems of agriculture food from factories so it essentially means that we should step away from traditional conventional agricultures as we know it and make lab foods And at that time must have sounded like science fiction and probably nobody took that very seriously

16:53 But today you find the same arguments and way of thinking in the same logic, you find it as mainstream. And not only that, the ones that are propagating them, the message are organizations that are all historically coming from the same network club of Rome Rockefeller Foundation The World Economic Forum, the World Business Council for Sustainable Development that are connected to the United Nations Environment Programmes in the early days coming from Maurice Strong and all those people. Those were technocratic agendas so there are different forces and they're not it's not a linear system here is not one person or one organisation pushing something on all the other people It is a complicated network, complicated historical

17:42 patchwork of all kinds of different belief systems and motives and agendas that are now converging, finding a common interest in a simplified message that eating meat is bad. And eating vegan foods is good thing. Well, that's a great summary of a complex history. You mentioned Morris Strong in the 1970s you know he was an oil guy who set up the public-private partnerships which is also a big part of how we got to today with this revolving door between food tech industry and policy makers and obviously we can get into some of those organizations but that self-sacrifice theme obviously that's still the justification like if someone wants to do that for themselves for religious reasons

18:29 by all means, go for it. Be spiritually enlightened and be a vegan." But to impose that on everyone else is not right! And today that justification is climate change and when you get into the Rockefellers in this billionaire class I've never seen them doing Do anything out of the goodness of their heart for the benefit of the masses it's usually about really cold controlled capitalism especially these oil guys because there stories where cars used to be able to run on alcohol and they shut that down these to be able or run on hemp shot that down cuz all is what i can troll so becomes oil only get rid of the network of.

19:10 Trains, you know control transportation as much as you can. This is kind of their mindset So when I think about this and the next chapter maybe we had a chapter where? Medicine was there I mean most pills are based on oil so then we can say that was a chapter now food is the next big focus of theirs and Something that was just really eye-opening That you said in a previous interview Was that You know, anyone can farm and raise and slaughter animals. But only highly advanced food labs can make these Impossible Burgers, these Beyond Burgers, these patented food products that they're trying to push us towards. They can justify it as saying oh well it's for the good of

19:56 the people and the good of the planet, but it's also for the good of your pocketbook because regular people can't make an impossible burger. So if you get rid of cows and pigs and chickens where we do have some control and autonomy over our own diets and you give us only this other stuff well I mean that's a scary place to be! Yes it's clearly about control thats obviously technocracy has to be understood as an attempt of experts to impose their vision on things, which may be driven partially by profit. But not only don't underestimate the cultish side of all this there's an ideological part as well playing even in those Rockefeller foundations and so on there is a cultish almost idea and those people see themselves as they truly see themselves sometimes as saviors of the planet

20:49 And also, of course if you can make good money with it even better. So it's a combination of both we shouldn't underestimate the ideological part of this but it's clearly always from both perspectives It's about control. It's about trying to do what you want and taking away the resistance If they control food, you control at all I mean if you control the food system is our basic need Is what everybody needs? It's what everybody needs daily if you don't have it there's a huge problem. And if you cannot access it anymore yourself through your own network, your own community network and your own retail and your supply chains locally but you depend on those specialized foods that come from very complicated high-tech approaches to food well then there is a huge amount of control involved

21:40 Another resource here is land, of course. The thing with animal agriculture and especially red meat and to focus on cattle is that cattle takes up land you need lands to have cows there's a lot of land and Land is a crucial thing it has a very strategic value controlling food and controlling land by removing the cows from the land and using it for all other sorts of things. Think about carbon credit systems, and so on. Controlling food and controlling land are prime targets if you want to get control over the way things work

22:19 Absolutely great points and i also heard you make the case that we could look at margarine as an early example of a corporate creation that no one really like but then the marketing was so aggressive, many people were convinced it was better than what was natural which is butter or gear using animal fats for cooking. And eventually we realized it was bad for us. And now they're kind of using that template, that same aggressive marketing on dozens of traditional food replacements right? Yeah and it's always a good lesson if you consult some history books because

23:01 Usually, mechanisms stay more or less the same. It's just that they vary a bit according to the circumstances but the essence of it is usually very similar. What happened with margarine is that originally margarine was developed as a substitute for butter so it wasn't Napoleon who at some point said well we need butter for the army and we need butter for the lower socioeconomic classes so we need a substitute So he opened a competition and people entered that competition, and they came up with some solutions. And after that when margarine was introduced it was seen as an inferior food It was seen as fake food. It's an imitation. It is trying to be the real thing but its starting from cheap ingredients... That's why it wasn't invented in the first place! so its an inferior substitute for the real thing People have seen that such for long time

23:52 until the moment came where clever positioning of that product, because there were huge economical interests involved. Clever position of that product inverted the situation so it became a superior product and they did this by connecting the image of margarine no longer with cheap ingredients but with progress It became a symbol, it was presented as something modern, it came from science There were even connections to feminist agendas. They were saying that it empowers women one way or another, and many other things. And the typical narrative was that this margarine as a matter of fact, it tastes like butter, it looks like butter, it cooks like butter but it's better than butter because it also brings you these and these advantages which were then reinforced with the whole saturated fat theory coming from Ansel Keys implying that is also more healthy

24:51 And then there was a whole health connotation that increased the sales tremendously, and people started to drop butter and they started to buy partner until well we reached the point now that you know how that was quite misleading campaign for all sorts of reasons. But if you compare that what is being done with the impossible foods and beyond meats and all those other products, you very typically find the same rationale they will say it's the same thing as meat They even at some point used the same slogans that they were using back then about cooking like meat and looking like meat. It's the same thing in all ways, except that it's also much better for you and for the planet and for the animals. And it just a big bonus that they promise you while guaranteeing – at least that is what I say – the same properties as the original. So it's the same marketing idea creating lots of promises, creating a narrative

25:52 that has to be very strong to be effective. So you need lots of media power behind it, which they have and then pushing out the other product, the original one and that's the intention of Impossible Food and Beyond Meat and many other companies in that space The intention is to push out animal sourced foods, to destroy animal agriculture They have stated so much It's not that I'm against offering new options If people like it or don't like it then we'll decide on its own if that's a valuable product I'm certainly not against offering new options. I am absolutely not against people, not wanting to eat meat and looking for other solutions. So I have absolutely no issue with vegans as long as it's a free choice but i have a huge problem with the attempt in that process to vilify those producers and farmers that come up with the original products and the outcomes of original farming and the benefits

26:50 farming if it's well performed. Because, it is true that not all agricultural practices at this moment in time are beneficial and that's particularly valid also for the field of animal production there are issues but what they're trying to do is to vilify to that extent that they would generate a collapse, a complete destruction of animal agriculture And that is very disturbing because then it would make us dependent on people producing those imitation foods Right, right. It's hard to get back once it's lost and exactly in recent years we have really seen a ramping up of corporate science of Science Inc just this monolithic here is what the data says and there's only one answer And we're giving it to you on a silver platter and you just need to obey that has been a theme lately and it's definitely spilling into the food area

27:49 How do we cut through some of that, I guess we would say propaganda? Some of that marketing. What does the actual evidence show? You as a nutritional food expert what would you say about the importance of red meat for some people maybe not everybody but especially compared to these replacement foods if we even have the data on the replacement foods Well, there's a bit of data. The problem is that the way it's presented even in scientific literature is extremely reductionist. First of all the discussion is typically narrowed down to discussion about protein so they're saying that we need a protein transition but thereby they are ignoring all the other nutritional

28:39 factors that are present in food. It's not only about protein and if it is about protein, we need to think about protein quality. Not all proteins are the same if you have 100 grams of meats you have high-quality proteins that is easily digestible has the proper spectrum amino acids that you need. Proteins like cereal proteins for instance if you take 100 grams of cereal proteins well that's limited by the content some amino acids, especially lysine that are not sufficiently available. So it takes down your protein value and those two proteins are not comparable so even that is an issue but an even larger issue is that you're ignoring all the other nutrients now if you take a piece of meat It's an extremely nutrient dense food micronutrient dense food And why is that because in the end meat is muscle its animal muscle

29:32 What we need daily is to build our muscle. Muscle degrades and has to be built up all the time, so we need substantial amounts of food or nutrients to build those muscles and meat is very compatible with our needs and that's logical right? If you look at eggs and dairy, eggs and dairy are meant to offer nutrient-dense packages to offspring, they're designed to be nutritionally extremely valuable So it's no wonder that they're also very interesting foods for humans. Now, one can choose to drop to not eat those foods – that is an option and again if people want to do that for all sorts of reasons whether that is taste or religion or animal rights feel free to do so but have in mind that if you do that its not all that easy to cover those nutrients through plants only

30:29 Some of those nutrients are difficult to get through plants. There are options, you know we can supplement, you can combine foods, you can combine beans and cereals which improves your protein quality values there things you can do but you need a certain amount of nutritional awareness to do that You need to be able to buy the ingredients you require and it may not be for everybody Nutrition is a very individual matter some of the compounds that you find in plants will need to be converted in the human body to become a bioactive molecule. Think about carotene, it's an orange pigment that you find in fruits and vegetables but you need to convert it into vitamin A in your body whereas if you obtain from animal foods its already pre-converted. And this is just one example there are several compounds like that

31:24 And not all people do those conversions well. It varies very much from one individual to another, so that explains probably also why some people are able to apparently thrive on a vegan diet and whereas others run into problems because of that individual variation. So to summarize you can try to eliminate those foods from your diet but you have to be very careful and conscious of what you're doing and replace what you lose there sources, valuable sources of very bioavailable nutrients and then you have to match those. Now that being said there is an argument also to reduce animal source foods to decrease the risk on chronic disease That's an argument you often hear in defense of those people wanting to decrease or even eliminate livestock agriculture because they create chronic disease they will admit

32:19 Well, maybe not always but let's say probably most cases they will admit that there are valuable nutrients in animal source foods. But then they'll say well maybe but we can get those with supplements and then we will have less chronic disease now the science there is it's complicated and why is it complicated because you have various studies showing different things Saturated fat is a typical example for instance. People have long claimed that saturated fat causes heart disease, but if you look at all the evidence if you look at the mental analysis status nowadays that association is by far not so clear as I said and it may even not exist. Saturated fat also is a group of very different molecules we have saturated fatty acids they can be all sorts of different molecules with different health effects individual susceptibility plays

33:13 people respond differently to fat saturated fat and then the dietary context matters quite a bit. Red meat contains heme iron, okay? Now that's a very good nutrient because there is a lot of iron deficiency even in the western populations but we have considerable substantial amounts especially women that are iron deficient in the west, in the US, in Europe not only in the global south and heme iron which is a very bioavailable form iron in red meat is therefore very beneficial and is a good reason to eat red meat. However, some people

33:53 because of their, again individual status accumulate iron. And if you accumulate iron that is a risk factor and then you may have a problem so if you're the kind of person that accumulates iron and you can see it in your blood values well then you better be careful with meat If you have too little iron than its an excellent food So that shows you that it's very individual aspect and that on a population basis, we should be very careful with giving blanket recommendations like that. Yeah, I appreciate the nuanced look at it. Anecdotally, I know people who survive on a vegan diet...I wouldn't say they thrive if they get through the day but they don't seem particularly strong or robust and there's probably something to say about the brain-gut connection as well and people who are nutrient deficient suffer from brain fog

34:52 i think might be a happy accident for the elite i don't think they care if we're functioning at high capacity on a mass scale and there also might be something to be said about degrading our meat and eggs in our dairy. Cuz a lot of it you know now it comes from corn fed overcrowded animals that never see the sun and so it's easier comparison to make if you degrade the quality really low then you can compare it to the beyond burger or the just egg soy based. egg bottle and say, well look it's not that much different. But yet I've seen reports from grass-fed pasture raised cows or chickens who really live just as natural as can be and the nutrient density is off the charts different from factory food so if you want to compare your lab made frankenfood to that stuff i think you're gonna have a hard time making your case

35:51 Well, and especially there's something that is even more playing. That is that if you insert a food in a specific dietary context and you compare it with the same food in another dietary context, you get completely different results. So if you set up a study where you include meat and the rest of your diet is really crap then meat will be associated with bad health through the whole dietary package. If you insert your meats in a healthy dietary context, you'll see that meat goes together with improved health. So we have studies to show that so in other words the background diet the lifestyle all those things will be determining if the effects of meat are net positive or net negative and then of course usually they cherry-pick those ones that are depicting meat as harmful now the whole nutritional science paradigm is built on

36:47 epidemiology of chronic disease, which means that those are observational studies. They look at people what they eat and they look at how healthy they are and then make a connection between both but it's extremely important to understand that those are associations And that those associations first of all are weak, not very strong and they're very confounded They're confounded because people that tend to eat less meat already As we said before there are the obedient moral citizens that listen to advice They follow all sorts of advice. They go more to the doctor, they drink less, they smoke less... ...they have more physical activity compared to people that eat more meat on average. Not everybody but on average this turns out to be the case and that's what they call a healthy user bias Now what they do is try to correct statistically for those effects Statistically they try to correct for smoking and the effect of this and the effect of that But you cannot correct everything

37:43 there is an inherent bias there that you cannot rule out if the associations are so weak. So all those studies are probably, there's a high risk that those studies are just capturing an artifact as a matter of fact if you look on a global scale if you look outside of the western context especially in United States context then you see the opposite and what is found in the US you see very often than The more red meat people eat, the healthier they are. And again that's not necessarily a true causal relationship it may as well be because in low-income countries if you eat more meat your richer and if your richer you have better health because you can afford to go to healthcare and so on So its extremely difficult to get useful information from those kinds of studies

38:30 And that's being just brushed away as irrelevant and they just use those studies that are supporting their case. And they forget about all the other things, and they never contextualize it. So because nutritional sciences are so fuzzy and so difficult and rather unable to come up with hard evidence, they use that fuzziness and they profit from that fuzziness to advance the theories and arguments they prefer which in this case is saying that meat isn't unhealthy food Right, right. Great points again and let's talk about the big they and some of these organizations we have currently that are pushing this stuff an what they say they're trying to do because we have the eat Lancet Commission last year there was a UN food system summit

39:20 The Rockefellers reset the table project. These are just some of the names, but what can you tell us about this interlocking network today and this revolving door between food tech we might call it an actual policymakers because it does seem like we have some regulatory capture in this area? And it seems like they're ramping up their agendas There's a network here that consists of usually always the same players. So there are couple of players in the arena who are pushing very hard to get through a global diet that is low in animal source foods

39:56 And within that network, you find organizations that are not new. Well, you mentioned EATE is a new foundation but then again its founder is a young global leader of the World Economic Forum it's very much embedded in the whole structure of Davos and it's also connected to the World Business Council for Sustainable Development they have a formal program with WBCSD The World Business Council That is called The Fresh Initiative and in The Fresh Initiative You have all the major multinational companies So not only is WBCSD connected to the World Economic Forum, it also represents all the major multinational companies that produce food or big producers of fertilizers and all the big players are there. And they're very tightly connected to The EAT Foundation. This whole network is really situated in that constellation – World Economic Forum, Rockefeller Foundation, World Resources Institute

40:53 Club of Rome is there still, and a couple of other ones. And they are very powerful because they are very influential. They have connections to political circles. They have connections to the United Nations because The World Economic Forum not so long ago entered in a formal partnership with the United Nations to further the sustainable development goals. So that we'll do that together as partners And of course, food is a very big part of that. That is what gave birth also to the United Nations Food System Summit. We could clearly see the handoff Davos and World Economic Forum there and World Business Council for Sustainable Development. And that food system summit was meant to impose

41:43 a new food system on the entire planet by connecting it to the United Nations and by doing so creating a transnational movement, a transnational framework that would then trickle down to the various different countries that would have to adopt it. Now that seemed to be the original idea didn't work out you know it failed there were number of reasons why that failed but it didn't work out that way what we see is the representatives in the summit, after the summit they have now reconfigurated themselves and they're now entering something called if I'm not mistaking The Food Forward Coalition. And they have combined their organizations, their efforts with The Club of Rome who will know also be part of this so there will be next steps and it will be a continuous process we'll see a lot of that in the coming months and years It's not going to slow down

42:39 Yeah, and I pulled some details from previous presentations and interviews you've given one of them that's kind of scary is on the advisory board is mark wilson the director of black rock world's largest shadow bank we talked about them before. And part of his role apparently is to rate companies based on their compliance with these food goals and then based on the score of the company Some will rise and some will fall by the amount of investment they can get or not get. And I think I've heard this referred to as ESG scores, but this might be a little different. But this is a huge thing because a lot of money is wrapped up in these large investment firms and if you're going to rate every individual corporation in terms of how they play ball with your food agendas that's a lot of power

43:33 One can ask himself or herself the question, what is BlackRock doing on the advisory board of the EAT Foundation? A foundation that is meant to look at food and optimize food in function of health for humans and the planet. What does BlackRock do there? I think that one of the major strategies in the next months will be... And it's already starting! Will be a battle over words. A battle over words to define certain concepts and use those concepts in policy. For instance, one example is the true cost of food right? What is the true cost of food you hear that often we have to pay for food not because we pay in a supermarket but the true cost now if you define what is the true costs then you define the price and you define the policy they talk about adjust transition what does just mean so there are all sorts of words healthy what is healthy no definition of healthy the definition sustainable

44:36 there will be a huge battle over words. And if you control those words, then you control also the SDGs, the sustainable development goals which are targets set forward by United Nations and where the World Economic Forum has declared that it will do everything to advance those sustainable development goals. Now those sustainable development goals in principle they sound good. It's about ending hunger and it's about having healthy oceans and so on and so on However, if you start defining the words used in those SDGs according to your own agenda then it becomes a powerful tool. Now what BlackRock is doing and what other organizations are doing... BlackRock is an extremely powerful player but you also have less well-known organizations such as the World Benchmarking Alliance where you have ETH Foundation, we'll have WBCSD there again they're same players And the World Benchmarking Alliance wants to benchmark companies

45:33 according to how well they meet the Sustainable Development Goals. So by doing so, the idea is to upgrade or downgrade attractiveness of companies so that investors will either endorse them or drop them and if you can get such a control over market attractiveness then you can destroy your company or you can boost your company So there's a lot of interest at play here. This is an extremely powerful approach to the market, you can destroy or boost the company at your will by defining the rules that are to be respected in this game here and that means a semantic battle it means defining what a certain concept needs so there's going to be a lot of science

46:21 that will be created to support those semantic shifts and discussions. There's a whole factory of scientific papers going on trying to fill in what it means to be sustainable, what it means to be healthy, what it means to be just and what it means to be the true cost of food and various other concepts in that space. Right right! And there are a lot of interesting quotes and strategies from these people that I want to get to but In the first hour i wanna make sure this gets in here but i learned about the c40 cities initiative from you and it's quite concerning anyone can go to their website see forty cities dot org, did defines itself as a global network of mayors taking urgent action to confront the climate crisis and create a future where everyone can thrive.

47:12 And they state their planetary health diet goals quite clearly. Their progressive target is 16 kilograms of meat, 90 kilograms of dairy per person which I understand is not much but they go on to say there perfection target is zero meat and zero dairy by 2030 for everyone. And the mayors who have signed on to this would be directing policy in cities like Barcelona, Copenhagen, Guadalajara, Lima, London, Los Angeles

47:50 Milan, Paris, Seoul, Stockholm, Tokyo, Toronto and more. And this is just so insane that they plainly state we want you to have no meat no dairy by 2030 a very short time And people need to be aware that this is really happening right in front of their eyes. And if you want traditional foods, high quality sustainable traditional foods to be around the time to use your money to keep these businesses intact is like yesterday and you better take it pretty seriously because this is what we're up against and that's really insane

48:30 Well, I don't think they will achieve that. So I don't think we need to panic with that degree but it's very concerning and worrying nonetheless because it will create harm. If you set a target that extreme even if you don't achieve it, you will still create harm. And even New York joined this as well if I'm not mistaken as an extra city no so long ago. You've seen what came out of the policies in New York already with the mayor going clearly for anti-meat policy So the C40 Cities initiative is a broader initiative. And it probably talks about food, it talks about all sorts of different things. Targets for food you mentioned are the actual targets of the Eat Lancet diet so the so-called progressive target are the suggested amounts of the Eat Lancet diet those kilograms if you think about it's not much try to figure out for yourself what it means 16 kilograms of meat per person per year It is not much and especially red meat is discouraged right? It should be poultry mostly most of all

49:30 And then the ambitious target of zero is also an option in the Eat Lancet diet. The Eat Lancet diet allows you to have a vegan option as well, but you have to supplement with B12 that's the only site comment they have so it ranges between zero and those upper limits but they don't allow you to have more than that So these targets are not coming out of the blue They're coming from the Eat Lancet report But they don't just talk about food, they also talk about for instance clothing. They say that you should not have more than three clothing items per year right? It's one of the targets 2030. They say that you should not own any more private vehicles. You shouldn't have any private vehicles by 2030 in their ambitious target

50:15 In their progressive target, they say you can have about 200 vehicles per thousand people. But in their ambitious target zero vehicles not private ones who could fly once every two or three years for distances so it's an almost totalitarian interventionist program and mayors have signed up for this which is incredible Not just exotic cities, leading global cities. Maybe they haven't looked at the details of what they signed and I have no idea but if you read the actual headline report on C40 Cities that's what you'll find. That is in their program

50:54 Now, the E-Diet is connected to this but you also find C40 Cities in an extremely interesting overarching platform which is one of the most interesting ones to look at because this is the one where you find most of the players that will find it all. The other organizations... It's a kind of Hydra. You see? It's the same players with different front organizations but there's one way you see most of them coming together and it's called the Global Commons Alliance. Global Commons Alliance has the subtitle a plan for the planet no it's technocratic view we have a plan for the planet and within the alliance you have c40 cities. You have the foundation you have the rockefeller foundation of business council development world economic forum united nations resources institute,

51:39 all kinds of public-private partnerships like the Capitalist Coalition and many others where you have huge corporations that are also involved. So it's a massive, really massive alliance with very powerful players and it's easy to look at this as a conspiracy theory right? But this is just... It's not that surprising these are powerful people that see opportunities and start to work together around certain agendas in their common interest, even if they come from different places sometimes. They find a common interest the club of Rome is there by the way as well so you have that technocratic utopian view almost that is also infiltrating it and its a massive constellation

52:22 Yes, it really is and the C40 cities are so interesting to me just because this shows how you get from the think tank to actual policy makers because there's so much money involved here that you can say hey if you sign off on this initiative we can put a lot of money behind you and a lot of media behind you and we can put you into a position. And in the last couple years we saw people in positions of power that were also lockstep with just these big decrees that came down from international organizations and, that's just really concerning to me. I do think you are right they will ultimately fail because these plans are really ambitious and quite crazy but they will do a lot of harm in the meantime it's just wild that they'd even attempt this stuff and another one of the things

53:18 I saw from one of your slides was a slide titled anchoring policy that focused on the eat commissioner Francisco bronco and he said that. The world health organization will make the food policies that trickle down to national policy worldwide and that really set off an alarm bell to me because there was a really recent campaign to get all nations to sign over their autonomy to the WHO so that they could act faster in the wake of a new pandemic. I followed this story for a little bit and kind of fizzled out on it, but I believe that they definitely came up short of their goal. But they were trying basically in advance of the next thing be like just sign up here you know so we can make the decrees

54:09 and then we can act a lot faster in the wake of a new pandemic. But this also applies for him to say that they're going to act through the World Health Organization on these food policies, that says a lot doesn't it? Well he's a World Health Organization official to begin with and it's under that function that he entered the EAT Commission so Look at it from the perspective of those organizations. Those organizations have global plans, okay? So they want global interventions It's a global scenario because they're multinationals that don't belong to a country You know their multinational companies they look at the world as a global challenge so if you want to do that is very difficult and inefficient To pass from national legislations If you have to work your way

55:03 inside the politics of every single country and do it bottom up from there is gonna be very difficult. The more efficient way for them is to work on a transnational level, think of the Paris Agreement. Now the Paris Agreement is a place where nations come together they sign up one manifesto and that has to be implemented globally. There's a lot talk about an IPCC for food, to have something similar. To have a global agreement on food that can be implemented and countries will have to adhere once the manifesto is signed so that shortcuts the whole bottom-up procedure where you have consultations and dialogues and you just have some experts coming up with something You'll just overwhelm the officials during a couple of summits And then they sign up to it and then the country has to stick to it

55:55 So that's much more efficient. And to do so, if you want to enter the game from the transnational level well how can you do it better than through the United Nations? The World Health Organization looks like the ideal platform to implement health policies in support of global agendas and on itself that could be a good thing for some things need coordination but there is a difference between good intentioned coordination to optimize and smoothen out the process and make it more efficient and effective and using it as a matter of control over the reality so that you can push through certain ideas. I'm not opposed to United Nations initiatives and frameworks if they do what they're supposed to do, coordinate and create dialogue and then so forth but from the moment they would become a controlling body overruling national decisions than we have an issue

56:55 Right right which is why i think decentralization so important because, i can see the benefits as you laid out to some coordination and big. Organizations to work on big problems but that opens up the door to serious corruption and once it's there it's really hard to get out and they have so much power in so much reach so it just like i say decentralized all the things and deal with the consequences And so before we go, what are your thoughts on how we should build a better system for animal foods than what we have with factory farming as well as what they're trying to sell us with the lab grown stuff? Just to tie this all together. If you were in charge of food policy for a country how would you approach that? Well there are things that are not okay with animal production at the level

57:49 things like, well you could say soil for instance. Soil is an issue. You know soil is extremely important we underestimate the value of soil and there are certain ways of doing agriculture not only animal agriculture all agriculture where soils get depleted we supplement them with fertilizers and in the end it's not a sustainable practice. Soil should be the focus of about everything we do and there are many ways that we can achieve that They have to do with creating diversity. So you will have different plants on the surface, this diversity creates resilience it has to do if you use animals it has to do with the way you manage the animals You can steer their grazing behavior so they don't overgraze and destroy the soil but they actually promote soil health sequester carbon being part of the climate solution in those scenarios there is also better welfare

58:48 and steer them away from food feed competition, just don't give them grains. Even though the grains they often get sometimes is also exaggerated because a lot of the grains they get are actually grains that are not suitable for humans in the first place but anyway there's still work to be done on getting ruminants maximally on the nutrition that is not suitable for humans right? That's their strength at the end. That's why they're so valuable cows are able to yield very nutritious foods from an input that is essentially grass and sunlight, and rainwater or rainfall. However if you start feeding them essentially with fortified feeds then those feeds come from monocultures and if you extract water to do so instead of depending on grasslands with rainfall, if you let them overgraze they can be very destructive as well

59:40 So, there's really a lot of potential to improve that globally at the global scale. So you start fixing degraded soils, you start to sequester carbon, you create diversity in your landscape, you boost biodiversity also from insects and birds and everything that comes with it all of that is feasible but is just not being talked about very much instead we see the simplistic scenarios they say well let's just erase livestock and come up with plant burgers. Let's not forget that those plants, burgers or vegan burgers are based on things like soy protein or pea protein where will those come from? Well they will come from especially if they have to produce at such a high scale it will come from monocultures it would be based on fertilizers that come from fossil fuels they will destroy biodiversity in the process

1:00:32 and so on, not to mention even public health because what are we feeding people here? We're feeding them ultra-processed foods. And then you have the monogastric animals like the pigs and the chickens those ones are... So whereas cows are good in converting grass those monogastrics are extremely good in valorizing side streams of other human activities Even if you create crops a lot of crop production is not for consumption Now there are lots of parts of crops that we cannot eat, but you can feed those to monogastrics and they can eat those and turn them into something valuable. So there's an argument for more cyclic systems making it more circular so that we are not depleting things, we're not having a linear approach,

1:01:21 a better integration with how ecosystems work. And then the model here is to look also at what wildlife does, like the bison for instance they are a very good model for cattle industry the way bisons create topsoil and the way they graze we can learn from that and use those techniques which are perfectly in balance with nature also for for the meat industry Grasslands are amazing. Grasslands have been evolving over tens of millions of years, what is it? 40 million years or something like that and it's a co-evolution of grass animals predators of those animals not to mention the microbes in the soil and all the other organisms that are involved with beetles and worms and all of that It's fantastic complicated but very elegant system of evolution And you can partially use up your advantage where

1:02:22 You work with ruminants, the human is the predator in this scenario but does so in accordance with the entire ecosystem by respecting a couple of ecological principles. And it doesn't necessarily always mean that you have to reduce production and becomes less efficient. A lot of those techniques especially like rotational grazing actually can come with productivity increase if we do it properly. All great points. I mean, a lot of that breakdown echoes what some regenerative sustainable ranchers I've had here have articulated and it seems like this is the way

1:03:03 Man, I just thought this was really great. You're so knowledgeable and you're quite brave for putting yourself out there in an academic culture that is not friendly to the perspectives that you're offering but it is very much appreciated here. Do you have any links or follow-up information you'd like to give the listeners before we call it in? Well, I can offer two things. I have my Twitter account which is F L E R O Y 1974. That's one I'm rather active on Twitter, so people can find lots of my thoughts and a lot of information on Twitter. And then I have created a website which is scientific – the language is quite technical but it gives you an overview of the nutritional environmental and ethical debates around animal source foods. The website is a blogspot

1:04:00 So it's in the Oxford family and it is called LEPH 2020. If you Google that, you probably find it. There's really a lot of information there and also hyperlinks to studies so if somebody is interested to go for deep dive into the science I think its good place start Even if I say so, having made it myself. Right on well, I will make sure they have links handy along with this but i can't thank you enough man this has been one of my favorite food interviews ever! It's been a real pleasure keep fighting the good fight and take care out there Thank you so much and it was nice having this conversation with you 100% yes people!! I am so happy with this one The Good Doctor is so knowledgeable

1:04:50 He's professional and accredited but not compromised by the very agendas he criticizes. And he's willing to come on our Weird Stuff show and have a serious conversation about it! These professional academic types have to put a lot of trust in me that I'm going to do them justice, and kudos to him for taking the chance I would imagine there's a few listeners rolling their eyes at another food show, but this is the biggest move that Capstone Cabal is making right now and I want to cover it in every way we can. And just like COVID yes the titles might seem similar but I try to make sure that everyone I bring on for a certain topic at least brings something different to the table or has a different angle on it

1:05:34 In the case of the Food War of 2022, we have people from a prepper perspective. A rancher's perspective and now we have a food scientist who can lay out the history of these organizations he can talk about the way academia is getting on board and you can talk about the cultural and communal relevance of traditional foods that is being lost in this campaign These are multifaceted issues and I like to have guests who can come at them from several different perspectives. And this is probably my favorite, most well-rounded food agenda interview that i've done! All glory goes to the guests of course because these things totally rely on having a good dance partner but i'm just so jazzed up about putting this one out... That's not always the case but when I feel like I got a home run

1:06:28 It's a great feeling. But if you enjoyed this, I'd suggest following up with some of his presentations that are accompanied by slides it is nice to have that extra element in one of them he actually starts it with a quote from George Orwell from his journalistic reporting in the book The Road To Wigan Pier and George Orwell says, "...I think it could be plausibly argued that changes of diet are more important than changes of dynasty or even religion." And it is true. I like how broad a look at food we had in this one! I mentioned the show alone at one point, and it's true that anyone who watches it is confronted with the very stark reality that without animal protein and fat you're not going to make it It's also very insightful to see the preparation of animals with very basic tools You also get a lot of gratitude and some spiritual aspects of the whole process

1:07:27 Many people thank the land or the lake and I'm just a big fan of that show. But there are people who try to forage their way to success, and it never works! Then there are people who accumulate too much meat and have a new problem of protecting it from predators as well as preserving it from the elements And then you see people eat organs raw... It's wild! It's really impressive stuff And I think Dr. Frederic Lerat doled out some really insightful stuff in the second hour when we talked about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how societies mature, and what that does to our thoughts about food you get away from that primal type of living and suddenly diet can become a virtue signal it's not about nutrition it's about self-sacrifice

1:08:18 And these are the things that the Think Tanks and Food Tech Inc. are playing on right now We've certainly had guests in the past who come from that perspective, That the elite want us to engage in satanic practices and they encourage us to eat red meat as a result They normalize satanic practices and death with this sort of thing So they say but I totally disagree and right now When this is one of the key battlegrounds, I'm going to struggle to have those types of guests on or let that sort-of argument take up any time because they have it totally backwards. My perspective is that encouraging people to go meatless is encouraging a poverty diet—encouraging a diet that makes us weaker and has us functioning suboptimally

1:09:07 Again, diet isn't a one-size fits all thing and if you really put the work and dedication in sure A vegan lifestyle can work but examples of it that you can really cite are few and far between But from the elite perspective I would say the thinking is the same as fuel and medicine Hell some of the people are the same but fuel is the best analogy to use because It's not such a trigger issue as the medical stuff is these days But you have several available fuels. You have several transportation, travel options. Paris and New York City had electric taxis over 100 years ago the train system is cooking at full steam And our options were calculatedly whittled away to the sources that they had most control over Oil is not a better fuel than alcohol or hemp If you really want to get crazy The Stanley Meyer engine showed that even water can power a car

1:10:04 But oil is the most difficult for you or I to produce, so that's what it's going to be. So we get prohibition, alcohol is removed from society—we're told it's about one thing but really about another thing entirely—hemp is also removed again and we're told its about consumption and this big scary drug that is making people act insane And we lump hemp in for the benefit of the textile billionaires and the oilmen The commodity cabal, we could say This feels like a very similar fight. They're whittling down food options to the things we can't produce ourselves, highly technical frankenfoods and the people making these foods are heavily involved in the influencing of policies that justify them getting full control over the food market We have to wise up and keep this from happening to yet another sector of the societal pie

1:10:56 We didn't do a very good job in the past, but maybe with the value of hindsight and the value of the interconnected world we won't lose this one. Again as Dr. Lara said these people say in their documents their absolute goal is to get to zero meat and zero dairy but they'll settle for gaining as much ground as they can We shall see, but if you liked the first hour we really opened it up in the second hour. We talked about... The plan from the mouth of the CEO of The Impossible Burger who straight-up says they want to send beef pork and then chicken markets into a death spiral Does that sound like friendly competition and just offering the people another option? I don't think so! I also had to ask him the question of if there is a depopulation element to this larger plan

1:11:48 We talked about future strategies that he expects to see roll out to achieve their food goals. Resetting food knowledge at the school level and weaponizing kids, the attack on communal eating going after school lunches and restaurant menus we talked about the historic ritualistic and cultural importance of animal foods And I didn't mean to say that i'm going to kill and process all my own animals, but it's an important thing to experience at least once in your life. I actually know a farmer in Southern California who is open to letting me kill and prep my own chickens and lamb If I could just get Sam Tripoli to go up there with me we could make a behind the scenes video about it. Why don't you guys help me lean on Sam a little bit? I think it would be much more fun to have a wingman

1:12:41 Anyway, we also talked about the importance of organ meats to nutrition and food traditions. One of my favorite parts—inverting Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how it relates to food, insights into fermented meats, and his advice for natural-and low tech ways to keep meat preserved in a crisis scenario God forbid! So, so many great insights. I don't mean to gatekeep you guys this is just my job this is a business and if you think it has value it must be funded somehow and we're not doing sponsorships or ads! Just like the pivot most ranchers are making right now direct-to-consumer is the way

1:13:24 If we're honest with ourselves, many of us spend $8 much more frivolously in other areas of life. But sometimes people get hypercritical when it comes to podcasting and a show that they like but for some reason draw the line in the sand at contributing to it I get those messages all the time. I just don't pay for podcasts We think nothing of it to pay a waiter eight dollars to bring a sandwich from the counter to the table five high quality shows a month, forget about it. It's weird thing but either way I got a seven day free trial to get you started help me help you will definitely enjoy the full shows as they're designed to be and if you liked our guest today reach out to him on Twitter if he'd be so kind in higher side news that is our fifth show for the month of August

1:14:15 I got another interview to record on Tuesday, but i'm really going to push myself to get into these joint session messages and knock out a bonus show for you guys before the month is over. It's long overdue...I know! But it is coming As for the meetup calendar at highersidemeetups.com where you can meet your new friends and build your local network of like-minded fun people here's what we got on deck September 3rd, once again we have the Conspiracy Theorizers at the High Springs Brewing Company in High Springs Florida. But we also had added a nature walk to Forest Falls in Southern California I didn't know what this was so I looked it up and it looks quite enjoyable Nature's Music & Mystery September 3rd They're meeting at the El Mexicano restaurant at 430

1:15:05 And then we have the Seattle THC Inquisition coming up again on September 7th, the monthly recurring meetup that I appreciate. But i might try to get out to that hike! I do love waterfalls and I've never been there before so keep an eye on my Twitter if you're in the Southern California area and I'll let you know if I'm going to make it out to that one a day or two before it happens but that's the kind of thing I do love to see on the calendar But no matter where you meet up, it's always a good time to find other THC listeners in the area. Especially in this type of climate right? Have a few beers smoke a couple joints split a cow do what you do but that's it for me thanks for listening thanks for being plus members and big thanks to our guest as always find him on twitter if you want to let him know he was heard I will put his handle in the show notes and I'll see you next time

1:16:01 I've done my part. Your move, food tech tyrants, frankenfood monopolists and wagers of the war on red meat... You're fucking dead. Sometimes when i get down i eat a bunch of corporate junk. Fuck that makes you fat or make the street disapopexed and only have to face it wrong! Got an addiction to the digital technology now and then i try to quit but its too

1:17:22 See, discipline is no fun I'm disciplined and I don't have to The big conspiracy And every one of them

1:18:52 And that is another show complete! Remember, as much as you enjoyed this which is just the free first hour I hope you'll become a Plus Member to hear the full two-hour interviews. You also can engage with other Plus Members in the comments and the forums and you'll find your answer to one of the most common questions I get which is where can I find those cover songs that you use at the end of the show? Well they are free downloads for Plus Members too And without Plus Members, I can't hire the occasional musician to bring these odd cover song ideas to fruition. Plus members are how I'm able to do what I do without ads and without the big machine being on my back! We can fit so much more into a two-hour interview and I do my best to make it worth your time and money." The conversation only gets deeper, weirder, and more controversial in that private hour. How could it not be the way things are going?

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