Adam Kokesh | Freedom, Self-governance, & Dissolving The State

00:05 Puppet masters almost surely have a clearly maybe something heavy And until you've thoroughly tested every last horse just to think, you know the less you really do That's true Dr. Seuss Where would we beat LTAT? Cause' we know they're lying to us Just don't fuck with LTAT The highest side chat show award company

00:44 Allllright Hireside Chatters, most of us have reached the point in life where we realize how truly nefarious our carefully crafted society really is as we're dropped aimlessly and ignorant from the abyss into an abusive fear-fueled system of economic enslavement forced to endure a decade plus of obedience training just to get us started On top of endless, finely tuned think tank propaganda only to be shuffled into a 9-5 cycle of exploitation, broken promises and unrealized dreams where a non negotiable portion of our already low wages is taken by force for the Puppet Master's personal piggy bank and world domination fund.

01:19 Well, it's pretty much a no-brainer that there is better way to do things but in the opinion of todays guests the best system might be no system at all. His name is Adam Kokesh and he's passionate activist and powerful voice in the libertarian movement You might have seen his popular show Adam vs The Man or read his freely distributed book Freedom And having completed his lengthy For The Love Of Freedom tour not long ago It's real treat to have him here Adam Amman welcome to the higher side Well thanks great but you don't have to sell those your responsibly nice things about me just a good conversation i appreciate the undeservedly epic introduction i hope.

01:55 i can do something in the way of living up to that today and it really is a great honor to have this kind of. Opportunity for further conversation that you host with this show talk about what i care about which is freedom, first man i appreciate them thanks for coming on no doubt your an active and passionate guy gotta respect that that. And just for people who might not be familiar with your background and level of commitment to causes that are important to you, walk us through some of your experiences since this path of activism seemed to have started with your involvement joining the Iraq Veterans Against the War group up through having enough time in jail to write your book to where we are now it's been quite a journey man

02:36 A full time activist for nine and a half years plus now coming up on my ten year anniversary of full time activism next february. And it started, well I mean i could go back to becoming a libertarian in high school when they said do you want to be republican or democrat and i was like wait wait wait no no no no. I don't have to be lame this is america gotta have choice and uh... you know they told me there's these libertarians you know these crazy people who like to be left alone and i was a punk kid so yeah leave me alone sign up for that

03:14 And i became a libertarian in name only having gotten the political version of the message of socially liberal fiscally conservative but. I had gotten this political version of the message. It just took me a long time to get to the philosophical version of the message, and that was kind of a point of rebirth for me even. So really that's the story... well it has to start with that point But getting the political message didn't stop me from enlisting in the Marine Corps, volunteering to go to Iraq. Having that whole experience and the reason the philosophical messages so much more important is that it's about ethics. It's about raising the standard of ethics in society

04:00 Freedom is what you have when no one is forcing their will on you in any way So, what does it mean to force your will on someone else? Well when we say don't hit Don't steal. Don't kill It's not unless you're a cop or an IRS agent Or a soldier and I did some terribly unethical things in the Marine Corps in Iraq if you want to get into that That haunt me to this day And it was a 10-year process for me getting out of the Marine Corps. You know, actually I was a reservist going to college And I volunteered to go to Iraq and i brought a pistol back as a souvenir. I bought it from an Iraqi cop, and I got in trouble with that on campus at my college when I was in between activations basically. And I was getting ready to go back to Iraq in 2006 after graduating from college, and this became a problem where my unit found out about it

04:59 And I spent a year, instead of going to Iraq managing the barracks at Camp Pendleton mowing lawns as a sergeant who spoke Arabic with civil affairs experience. And so i was just disgruntled enough when i got out to really start questioning things. People look at me like im smart and its ridiculous. I mean you know i wasn't dumb enough to enlist in the marine corps And I want to say, just barely smart enough to figure out that it was a racket. But even then, I needed a lot of help to figure it out. I needed a lot of circumstance... Like, I had to be disgruntled with the Marine Corps. You know? I got busted down from Sergeant to Corporal the day after they gave me a medal for my time in Iraq! So it was just like this

05:46 this really strange experience for me getting out of the Marine Corps that led me to first question the war. But it was, I moved to DC to get a master's degree in political management at George Washington University and that's where I found Iraq Veterans Against The War and getting involved with that was huge for me especially in the therapy of getting over my combat experience and being able to be surrounded by other veterans and take the evils in the trauma of my combat experience and put it to good use was immensely satisfying and really, are you the foundation of my activism i fell into that full time ended up touring all over the country with ivy w doing a lot of civil disobedience getting arrested.

06:34 And then i went through a major shift that was a break from anti war activism when i move back to new mexico to run for congress in two thousand ten is republican as part of the ron paul strategy and his endorsement. Then i couldn't shut up on the race was over so i will excuse during that time was my red ethics of liberty by murray rothbard and, That was a you know that there's a certain bottom of the rabbit hole you get to i like to say that the only time your wrong is when you think you're at the bottom of the rabbit hole because there is no bottom just keeps going and i've certainly found out with my recent challenges but.

07:14 There is a kind of bottom the rabbit hole on violence and politics which is philosophical libertarianism when you use just. Understand that ethics universal for reason we don't need to make this exception for government but when you do an ethical things, you get bad results and it doesn't matter if u excuse with voting or government or the needs of many or anything like that if you violate ethical principles it's not conducive to human happiness And I think that's what we're realizing now is it so much of humanity's misery comes from the institutionalized violence and coercion of government. So that's what i've dedicated my life to working on one way or another

07:55 And so when the race was over I couldn't shut up. I got a radio show that was the start of Adam vs The Man, then the TV show then the independent versions on the internet and I killed Adam versus The Man when I released Freedom which I started writing...I can't say I wrote it when I was in jail. A lot of people like to exaggerate that on my behalf but I started writing it when I was in jail and had the idea for it when I was in jail For four months in DC and I had a lot of help, you know You know, I think I was voted in high school least likely to ever finish reading the book. So when people go Oh you wrote a book? Hey Well, it's okay. I had a lot of help and It was more that I saw the opportunity To create The ultimate red pill And it was when I had all these great books in my cell In jail that people had sent me these great attempts too

08:51 Share the message of freedom in a way that you change someone's world view changes someones perspective and i thought we need. You know the ultimate combination of all the strengths of all these books with none of their weaknesses and thats what i set out to do with freedom because i got a lot of help i think at least, we succeeded in creating what today at present time, and I'm sure a better one will come along shortly. The sooner the better but what at present time is the fastest way to take someone from zero to I get it in terms of the nature of government and the nature of freedom and how we move past this whole paradigm of statism of central violent control

09:31 So I hope that wasn't too long of an answer. No, not at all hours yet. Well also was hoping maybe you could go into how it was your commitment to activism that landed you in jail for four months? What was the catalyst that got you on the radar or the system that they felt they needed to make an example of you Oh man, well that's kind of several long stories but basically it is for loading a shotgun for a YouTube video in the ironically named Freedom Plaza two blocks from the White House. And it started, I suppose February 2013 when the gun control issue was becoming a big deal. And as someone who's always been a major proponent of gun rights and uh...and then i have to say for the long run you know for people who are wondering how this works in a stateless society with no restrictions on firearms possession well your own property do whatever you like you want your property be a gun-free zone? You have the right to do that

10:33 You want your community to be a gun free zone if everybody voluntarily wants that no then hey you have that right and in the long run. What what what if like five people don't? Well then on their own property there they're allowed to do whatever you like now you have a collective as long as there's no violence involved if me and my ten neighbors in my tiny little corner of juniper wood ranch here say, we sign up pack them know what our area to be gone free and we agreed not allow guns on her problem that's our business i wouldn't do that i would just to be clear i would not do that but i will say is much as i am pro gun in the present.

11:10 And really and definitely into the future in the sense that i would never want anybody's right to defend themselves how they see fit infringe i would never want anybody's, write up self ownership the right to do what they want with their own property infringe by force anyway whatsoever. What guns represent is a tool of preserving value when used in just in a just situation where you use them for defense. But obviously, in a perfectly free society there's no need to use them for defense because aggression is so decentralized and in so many ways that it doesn't really exist but more importantly

11:49 With technology i think we're gonna render guns obsolete very soon here i mean as soon as you have star trek phaser that you can set to stun where if u shoot someone in the pinky toe it paralyzes them and yet preserves the value of their life, then you know when in that situation i you know when we get to that point is like if someone invented that today. And you know i was able to make it as cheap as a firearm and within five ten years is readily available if someone came to my gate with the gun on his head by be like hey you're not welcome on my property with that light will play with guns what fun with guns go hunting with guns but.

12:27 If you're gonna carry a gun for self defense that's not really responsible when you have something that more capable of disabling someone. And less destructive the preserves the value that person's life i mean what if the person was poisoned and since we already have this with tasers, and pepper spray, and personally obviously these don't completely add up to the stopping power of a firearm today. And I think for that reason with today's technology carrying a firearm is a smart thing to do. Before I became a felon I would open carry whenever I could. I would conceal carry whenever I was legally comfortable with that

13:07 and at some point today i like if you have someone coming after you. And a taser and pepper spray might not stop them yeah shoot him absolutely hundred percent i totally backup your right to defend yourself that way and thats what i would do but i do think it's somewhat irresponsible, even with today's technology to carry a firearm and not at least also carry pepper spray or tasers so that Before you escalate to deadly force and sometimes you might need to immediately that you have the option to use less than lethal force but anyway.

13:44 That ran to side should we get back to the story well i mean i knew you were gonna kind of disagree a little bit on the gun issue and i fall into a weird category that i personally really don't like guns or want to be around them but i also would never wanna shackle a person's ability to defend themselves are one limit, A person's ability to have a gun legally is just a slippery slope because you know you had this demonstration that I understand was like an open carry on Washington and i know it's a peaceful demonstration too. Highlight your rights to be able to do that but i'm not comfortable with people i don't know being within eyeshot of me being able to kill me with,

14:24 the pull of their index finger. I mean, you don't have to be on my property to be antagonizing me by loading a gun right outside the border of my property and I consider that to be antagonizing and threatening? You know it's a slippery slope and it's a hard place for me to find an actual position." Well let me give you a little perspective that I've had to embrace that might make it a little easier because your concern is legitimate absolutely That you come to draw certain lines and have some lack of clarity on that is also understandable because there is a sort of.

15:01 subjectiveness to a lot of these issues that is not often taken into account. I certainly respect where you're coming from in saying, basically if I want... That you don't wanna regulate safety on other people's property on their behalf right? If you think guns are totally dangerous that's fine but you recognize that it's still not right in any case for you come onto my property And point guns of government at me or use force against me in any way to say don't be dangerous to enforce safety on someone else. But in the bigger picture, of someone else being a threat here's what I think will give you the perspective on this that might help you draw your own lines if not... If you will or if you choose too which is that human life is incredibly fragile true? If someone wants you dead, you're dead

15:55 We live human beings live at the pleasure of every other human being on the planet you're alive right now because no one in your immediate vicinity wants you dead we're not alive. because we have limited our ability physically to kill each other, because you can slit someone's throat. You can choke them. You can poison them. I don't mean to get macabre with this but just embrace that fact! To acknowledge how fragile human life is... Is to really live in the joy of that mutual respect

16:35 Is the foundation of humanity essentially that we all are a communal species who fundamentally love each other i mean it is it is. Lots of exceptions and ensure but when it comes down to it you know where program to love and support each other if nothing else, hey for no other reason than that we have been programmed in designed to be interdependent So we don't want to kill each other you know even if you take all the flowery philosophical loving analysis out of it, just scientifically biologically. What do as human beings have the power to be so destructive to me so murderous if we want to be and yet

17:22 murder is a relatively rare phenomenon. You look at it compared to other species, even other complex organisms that do kill each other in different ways. Humanity is not particularly special one way or another if anything I think what makes us special is that having become the dominant species through intelligence we are continuing to evolve With our intelligence to be more peaceful to be more respectful because we realize it is More cooperative and in our best interest that way according to professor professor Steven Pinker Steven Pinker at Harvard excuse me who gave a great TED talk on the subject We are living in the most peaceful times in human history. You are less likely today than ever before

18:09 to be subject of violence at the hands of another human being and so this is where it comes back to my story that you know one of the things we wanted to demonstrate was that gun control is a violent policy in thanks to their rate on my home I was able to demonstrate. That beyond a shadow of a doubt when they say no we want to take your guns away or that you know we're gonna impose gun control anyway means that if u, assert your right to defend yourself with firearms, that government will come with even more guns and take them away and lock you in a cage. And that's literally what happened to me." Right and I'm totally in agreement with the idea that people are manipulated to live in fear when in reality not much really happens most lone gunman can be traced back to a power network most major attacks are coordinated false flags so there always seems to be something systematic.

19:03 Add its heart even though we're told this is all random chaos and you have to be careful because it's just low nuts out there i definitely acknowledge that but in an entire lifetime, if you were too just take a populated area like the mall if your to go there every day for thirty years. If 99.9% of people you are with in that room are harmless and decide not to engage in violence with you, it only takes that one person out of 100,000 to fire a weapon inappropriately? Kill your loved ones?

19:39 A lot of people are peaceful, but it only takes one person one time to really ruin someone's life. And are we going to just trust every individual to be responsible with a firearm? I mean people are dumb what if some 16 year old starts juggling guns in a public place I know these are kind of extremes, but that does happen. And I just don't want to trust that kind of stupidity. I also don't want to have to go to a national monument and see armed guards with machine guns. That doesn't make me comfortable either. I don't know them just as much as I don't know an individual. But it does make me nervous. What do we do? Like let's say... Just to throw out an actual question for you what about weapons of mass destruction nuclear weapons bombs anthrax

20:25 Yeah, so here's so man. It's so many juicy topics you just opened up with that because I kind of want to Take this back to the problem of violence in society right let's let's step back from the tools of violence and look at. The bigger picture of violence for a second and it were talking about moving forward to a state with society that is one which there is no institutionalized coercion in the form of government then, How does this apply to the general problem of violence well first of all ninety. Percent or so depends on how you want to count it i'm all the violence in the world today is done in the name

21:11 of government so right away you eliminate governments eliminated ninety percent of the violence in society now that you have to then take into account is government preventing any violence and the answer is not significantly because what do police do after a violent crime usually they show up afterwards and write a report if they make arrests at their fortune enough. They put them through the government punishment system rather than adjust the system Which makes it easy for people to get away with things so there may be some legitimate deterrent effect from government but in this bigger picture, is really insignificant because you look at the remaining ten percent of the violence in the world that does not committed in the name of government ninety plus percent of that is at least indirectly.

22:03 caused by government, with the drug war especially as the big obvious one. I mean there's so many examples of this but the poverty is well that is created by government when people are working for their corporate overlords through a system of taxation and oligopoly well yeah of course you're gonna have people desperate in many unfortunate situations that lead them to commit crimes of incentive. So I think you get rid of government Right away you get rid of 99% of the violence in the world like wow if you really care about reducing violence. You know we gotta be on the same page with a big picture here and agree that, We're gonna work on the remaining interpersonal violence once we get the big problem of violence out of the way. Fair but what about the vacuum that might control how do we know we won't have situations where warlords and mafias and gangs start competing for local territory?

23:02 That's a good question. Again, still not a reason to not get rid of government as soon as we reasonably can because and by that I mean with the paradigm shift behind it because the question is like if a doctor says look you have cancer and i'm gonna cut out and your gonna be cancer free your not going tell the doctor Well i don't know it might come back why don't you just leave the cancer there and let it do its thing right so in the sense that we have a paradigm shift behind the abolition of government means that we have to raise the standard of ethics and society much more broadly. We have to win a certain number of converts

23:43 Do you think for themselves i don't feel bad using that language because we're not converting anyone to a dogma were converting them to free thinking and no free thinking person wants to use violence against another person or two to govern another person or order support. That violence in any way so Who would there has to be that critical mass of people in society who have gone through the awakening if you will, that so many of us have a in terms of the nature of government and violence and if that's the case. There is not going to be a power vacuum because in order for their to be a power back again but because what i'm advocating this isn't evolutionary shift

24:28 not a revolutionary ship so the power vacuum argument is legitimate if we were to have a revolution and you know bunch of armed militias go in, i have a big shootout with government and there's no one there because the general public paradigm still supports government. The population will create a new government or rather new individuals within the general population will take advantage that instead of inside all you want to rule your all be your ruler no problem What is that were to happen after a paradigm shift after we have this localization of government not an overthrowing on and i'm not a sudden abolition but localization decentralization of power then you'd have someone step up in the like hey guys remember when we had all those wars in the police state and taxes wasn't that awesome let's do that again.

25:20 Because you can't just have a single warlord doing that it doesn't work every system of governance requires a certain amount of public buy-in and general social support. If you don't have an enforcement class of cops and soldiers willing to do violence against peaceful people on behalf of the warlords or whatever the government people are calling themselves, then you don't have an actual viable institution of government. And that's the point is to take away that viability by taking the support out from underneath it

25:57 Okay, so the structure as you want it to be would be underpinned by specific principles and an evolution of sorts How do you vote like when you said? You know that the best system might be no system at all earlier I kind of take issue with that language a little bit because to me The system is the natural law. It is the natural order of harmony in respect for individual rights its the imposition of assist it's like It's like going to a natural national park like going to use somebody looking at the beautiful environment and how everything is in harmony and there's a balance in nature and all the different species are interdependent and successful ongoing insane. Wow this thing is terrible there's no system here we need to put a system on their you know it's like no there's there's a beautiful panoply already

26:47 of natural systems and organic means of interacting that are flourishing without any system being imposed by force from an external actor or central control mechanism. Okay, but how do you ensure that everybody evolves or adapts to these principles? I mean what if someone just says yeah i see the natural balance the natural order and i want to disrupt that shit How do you make sure everybody evolves once you dissolve outside security or the enforcement class, which I do agree with it is an enforcement class but i don't know. I think it does serve some benefit in keeping the chaos somewhat in check. It's almost a double standard for conspiracy theorists to say but I worry that you can't force everyone to evolve

27:35 You're saying fight fire with fire i'm saying no fight fire with water and in that sense what you're talking about is not an illegitimate concern. But it's sort of like what we were talking about hey non violence is always superior to violence stuff you learned in kindergarten right let's just stop making these crazy exceptions called government so that some people can use violence against peaceful people right so, I really believe that every human being is capable of understanding this it's kinda like hygiene you know the first humans who invented brushing your teeth didn't have to force it on everybody they just had a smile and say hey do you wanna keep your teeth or not and in the same sense

28:22 Do you wanna be a good person do you want to be an ethical person do you want support other people acting ethically or unethically like what is it that's in your best interest and i think of everything human being is capable of understanding that eventually. It will be in, you know while there are plenty of temptations of violence and force and temporary payoffs and things like that. That ultimately in their own best interest over their lifetime being non-violent is in their own best interests. And I believe that is fundamental universal to being independent human consciousness that we are all capable of understanding and will eventually end if we don't like it to be able to move past this you only need a critical mass of people who are willing to work to make the specific changes happen

29:16 And when you say to the general public, hey could we do less violence here? Would you be okay with that and we can use the electoral system. Be like okay we're going to stop doing that violence okay how about this violence can we stop doing this violence now would you be okay with that and go yeah hey look how that would make our lives immediately better so this is my concept of localization We don't need to convince every single american that government is fundamentally unethical just it should be localized would you rather be governed by. by people in your community, in your state or where you know at a scale we are voice and your vote have a chance of being of mattering. Or would you rather have it be governed by someone on the far off capital? And I think that's a relatively easy pitch. Yeah well I do agree with you there that local government would be better but when you're talking about government being the problem itself that the system is the issue

30:10 I kind of think that terminology might be off a little bit because when i see a lot of the major problems that people pin on government, I think they're actually caused by wealthy industrialists and corporate lobbyists and banking oligarchs using government as their liaison. You know you got pharmaceutical companies pushing to make their vaccines mandatory Rockefeller and Ford were the money behind the education department to dumb people down so they'd have no competition powerful textile lobbyists are the ones that made marijuana illegal. So is it government itself or is it really these multinational corporations and wealthy industrialist who are manipulating it because they have the power to do so?

30:53 Well i'm glad you asked the question that way but let me suggest a better understanding of how that relationship develops right so say you got it know the pharmaceutical industry and some companies. There are using marijuana at a low profit margin right because its natural and it's open to competition in they can't patent thc riley patna pharmaceutical, And one person gets into that industry who's an evil person. I mean, I don't want to say evil person that's really not a necessary framework right? There is no such thing but sure someone of ill intent someone who's willing to do something unethical it to get themselves ahead is in that so say you've got 10 different companies ten different CEOs and then the pharmaceutical industry and government exists

31:44 And when government exists, that one nefarious person who wants to beat out his competition and is unafraid to use unethical means to beat their competition. When government is there that person goes cool all I have to do is bribe government and they'll use violence in order to support my business interests right? If you don't have government there that nefarious person has nothing to use this there is nothing there for them to do those unethical things with and so the people who are gonna compete be successful or the ones were using ethical means. For their business practices it's only when you enter do when you put the tool on a table that did your correct to say that they go hand in glove,

32:31 But the problem is not the concept of a company wanting to get ahead. The problem is a company wanting to get ahead in a world with government that rewards corruption, that rewards violence, that rewards bribery." Well let me use your own example because you say it's the government that rewards those criminal actions and the bribery and all that stuff but I think its the profit motive itself because to use your own example of ten pharmaceutical companies existing in a world where they want to make the most profit Even if you don't have government you still have this incentive for one company who maybe isn't as doing is, as well the other ones to go and pay someone covertly to poison the other nine companies vaccines to take them so that their companies have a massive scandal and thus. The one company wasn't doing is good is now at the top so even without a government i mean it's the profit motive itself that creates the incentive for criminal action because

33:34 Green at least how i sure is not and that's the point that deserves to be addressed in all of this getting rid of government is not a guarantee. That no one will do anything anything on ethical but having a government is a guarantee that people will do unethical things, So part of the problem with a society that supports government is that you've warped to the profit motive incentive system. So your right at the profit motive exists but in a world where there's no government and therefore no market for violence in that sense,

34:12 then you can only make money by serving people by helping people or like you said sometimes there's a separate criminal but i think you have better ways of holding them accountable, are you know in any system with which demands transparency as opposed to government one which create secrecy and corruption so if you have a situation. where that profit motive is only responsive to market forces, then that profit motive is properly harnessed to incentivize people to serve others. But when the market says well we like the free market but we also like government to come in and regulate stuff and use violence against peaceful people and to conduct a drug war and a war on terror

35:01 and a war on crime, and a war on poverty. And we want all of this violence it means that anybody who's stepping up in any business has to respond to that market for violence I mean even if you're gonna cut someone's hair you need a government license to do that so you have to if you want to not... because the market says Well if i'm gonna get my haircut at a barber shop, I want to have barbers license by government. Well that's the market saying... not saying I want safe or responsible or ethical barber it is saying that I wanna make sure my barber has paid off the violent extortion racket of government and contribute to that and gotten their permission to cut my hair

35:43 So in the same sense, you can turn that to the bigger scale. When the general population says yes I want an FDA to tell me what's safe to eat and use violence to enforce its decisions well it is creating in of itself a market for violence that takes what is a good thing...in the sense that greed is good wouldn't use that language, obviously. But in the sense that the desire to create value for yourself, the desire to create value for your other human beings, the desire to create value for the world—that's a good thing! That's what moves humanity forward. You can twist it and say its greed or say that greed is the twisted version of it. I think its only greed when…I mean, it's very subjective who cares about the meaning of the word? But greed has come to take on a whole other connotation

36:36 of somehow not providing value to other people. And I think that's a product of the broader status society and the broader market for violence, or even just demand for violence that is part of the status paradigm I mean, those are fair points. I guess I just fail to see government itself as the mechanism behind that violence. I kind of just see government as a neutral tool that can be used like a hammer—to build great things or bash someone's head in! And of course the reason our government doesn't work is because it is co-opted by wealthy industrialists, bankers and international corporations. It serves different masters who do use government to tilt the odds in their favor

37:16 But without it, I think they'd just be driven by greed to do it in other ways. Even poverty like you mentioned which is one of the biggest forms of violence so many crimes wouldn't be committed without our poverty problem and So many corporate crimes are the result of the dog-eat-dog 10% growth every year You might as well be bankrupt mindset And I don't see how removing government alone responds to those incentives. Your guess is as good as mine, how we might make a workable system without all that but i still think the bigger problem is that a certain kind of person is willing to trash the planet kill or sabotage those in their way and pay slave wages and completely exploit the rest of us to get a bigger pile of green paper...and that's the real issue as far as I can tell

38:00 Why i wouldn't dispute that you raise a lot of good problems with the so many things in there that seem like logical fallacies behind or presumptions what you're saying that i'd like to critically examine and unpack. if we can here. I wish I was taking notes during the last three minutes, because it was like oh this and then this and then this! Because I kind of got to go premise by premise here. And I want to first step back in a much bigger picture here about this and try to bring some context to this conversation itself because iIwas asking similar questions

38:40 for lack of a better term of describing it. And we see that there are a lot of people going through this awakening and the bottom of the rabbit hole on violence in politics is that you realize non violent relationships are always more conducive to human happiness than violent relationships so let me start by reframing capitalism a little bit cuz i could describe myself it wouldn't be an unfair label that is described myself as an anarcho capitalist and it comes from the belief in self ownership that you was an individual human being Own yourself as an independent consciousness you have that inherent right to exercise your will what would the only limitation being the rights of others write so. Is capitalism is described as ownership of the means of production,

39:32 Then it's not about factories it's not about machines or supplies or tools or widgets it's about individual human beings the ultimate form of capitalism is you own yourself. And the ultimate measure of productivity is not widgets or dollars or corporate earnings, but human happiness. It's what you decide for yourself in the pursuit of your own goals if you want to call that greediness or self-interest or whatever it is You can put it in positive terms or negative terms I see it as how defining freedom is based on your relationships right? Your relationships are free of force and coercion

40:15 And that's so important to understand that when we look at government as an institution, that everything it does is backed up by violence. By my definition of capitalism if capitalism is ownership of the means of production and that mean you own yourself then when government exists at all, you do not have capitalism Because government is to govern, to control. When we talk about the institution of government it is always controlled by force, controlled by violence even the good things that it does are backed up by the threat of force if only in well if you don't pay your taxes men with guns will come and lock you in a cage eventually

41:02 And so that being said, if government is violence then that violence can always be shown to hold us back from our natural state of harmony and cooperation. Because in an individual relationship that is voluntary this is why the philosophy is sometimes described as voluntarism we believe that all human relationships should be free a violence and coercion That if that's the case we know that anytime it's almost like a lot of physics you know any time you have a relationship. That is involuntary it means that someone's rights are being violated and someone's happiness is being compromised and that's in front to the natural order of human harmony does that make sense it does and there was another question I had for you because you do talk about the fact that all tax is theft and ultimately violence

41:56 And I see the philosophical argument there but can't it be considered a social agreement if we just had more control over where our tax dollars went? Is there any paradigm in which A smaller community could come to you and say, okay Adam we're gonna need to pool some money together to do some things that we want as a community. Are you willing to give X amount for projects A B & C? I mean isn't there any scenario... Yeah! I'm all for that no that's right great i'm all for that the only point at which i'm against that is when the mob comes to me and puts a gun to my head and says You better pay your fair share because of the social contract I never signed it. I just, I'm trying to live in peace here on my own. I want my money to go to better projects or maybe I have a sick relative who needs medical care? I'm sorry! I can't help you pay for your roads." You know, I should have the right to choose what I do with with my resources in that situation rather than having a gun put to my head and have my resources stolen

42:53 What if everybody chooses to pass the buck? What if everyone says, well I don't have enough money. I want to see this stuff done but if I pull out maybe all the other people will pay for it and everybody'll have that mindset What that means is that more important things will get done. So let's just, let's look at the roads as an example right? You know without government who would build the roads and that's kind of a silly question I mean i just built a road here near my property we know that we can come together and figure out the logistics of that right but lets say that uh... We have- Let's say our roads today- And personally I think that this point in history if it wasn't for government we'd have flying cars by now

43:30 Because the government has been subsidizing the oil and gas industry in the automotive industries for so long as they stifled it of Decades of innovation, but is it government? But sorry. Sorry I didn't want to interrupt you but is it government who stalled everything or is it literally oil companies who have owned the government right sure I mean You can describe it either way How do we get rid of if we get rid of government that doesn't get rid of the oil companies that are using the government So how do we dismantle that power? It means that the good oil companies will rise to the top and the bad ones will be put out of business But back to, if I may get back to the concept of Rhodes here. So and the answer because you raised a specific concern about pooling resources and how that happens without violence. And I really do believe that we will pool resources and distribute resources more effectively in the interest of human happiness when we take the guns out of the equation, the force and the coercion of government. So just to go back to the Rhodes let's say hypothetically

44:32 that today's roads are really nice i mean their government rose terrible and dangerous sloppy there's bad man let's just say that today's roads you know maybe compare to a hundred years ago today's words are really nice the government has spent billions of dollars on the road in america and we ended up with a reasonably serviceable transportation system Let's say government wasn't there to tax us, to create infrastructure for the oil and gas and automotive industries. And individual communities had to pool resources organically or gas companies had to compete for our business to support them developing roads on their own

45:11 It might be, it might be in your scenario. It might be correct that we are less able to pool resources to build roads but what if instead of those resources going to build roads they went to providing medical care for the needy? Maybe that was more important and what government does is create well we're a central planner and we need to have roads everywhere it's gonna be in everyone's best interest since you voted for it, where can I steal from people to make these roads happen. Well maybe that's causing a whole host of unintended consequences that aren't even visible because like he said

45:48 Now we have all this poverty as a result of that wealth being stolen from the american people now we have those resources going to the winds of central planners who in this case we know are corrupt rather than going to meet the needs of the people so you're back to your community example hey we wanna we need a pool resources to build a library and we need a hundred dollars from every house in this town and we're going to go door-to-door, and we're going to put a gun to everybody's head. And we're gonna collect $100 to build the library." Well at some point you're gonna find a guy who's got 100 dollars left to his name who needs that for medical care to save his daughter's life. You put a gun to his head and took it and now he's broke and now his daughter is dead.

46:31 You see there's a balance that is disturbed anytime you introduce violence into the equation and upset the natural distribution of resources in non-violent society, that would at least to the best of our abilities go to meeting real human needs rather than the needs of corruption. That's well said but Is there a punishment or consequence that you think would be appropriate for people who do just want to leech off of the system, off of the community and not contribute? I mean because you're giving people two choices. Either you can give a certain percentage of your income for this list of communal needs or you cannot and there's zero consequence for not doing it because you're hedging your bet that everybody else is going to contribute. And it just seems like you're incentivizing people to be leeches from a system without contributing anything I think the kind of the dirty secret of volunteerism, is that no one actually volunteers. Well it's not volunteerism its voluntarism specifically

47:29 and you're making several incorrect assumptions in the proposition that you make there. So let me go back to the library example for a second, hey we're building a public library it's going to be open to the public if you want to donate it's gonna be open to the public if you don't wanna donate its still gonna be opened to so your correct in that situation saying that generosity of people who do chip in their hundred dollars can be taken advantage by the people who don't ship in but in that case it's voluntary the people who are sort of in that scenario being taken advantage of our doing so because they want that poor person who can't afford to contribute to the library, do you still have access to books and knowledge and for society to be advanced by their having access to that information.

48:16 But let's say they, hey we're making a private library because we don't want those freeloaders. We want a private library where only the people who have contributed their $100 get to use the library." Well then they have that choice and the people can decide whether that's what's in their best interest or what's not so in some cases do we have free loaders are not? that's up to the people contributing so we're giving that choice back to the community as opposed today system which you talk about government encouraging free loaders i mean hello right where are all other scale of people taking advantage of the system because government gives them a sense of entitlement

48:59 Yeah, I wouldn't try to defend the current system by any measure. But I just am concerned about this system and some of what what I perceive to be the assumptions made about human nature or how people would act. I guess the way to solve this is there a real world model or example of a working libertarian community? Well the question is more does non violent do we have any examples of non violence working better than violence and you know i mean there was a guy who got murdered somewhere yesterday and i don't think violence work well for him when there was somebody, i whose hands are shook this morning instead good morning let's talk business.

49:38 And it was a good relationship for both of us so right there you know that's all the evidence that you need because we're talking about is non violence versus violence not. A system vs different system its let's eliminate the violence and coercion so so their examples are no all over the world throughout history where they have been, periods of less violence. And how about that when you don't have war, when you don't have central control? When you don't have institutionalized violence yes the general track record of human history is pretty clear less violence equals more happy people

50:15 and in terms of how we move forward in this and how we can agree regardless of whether you have full faith in this is to make it a peaceful orderly transition, anyway that you can agree with entirely which is localization government even if you believe the government is necessary and i might even just play devil's advocate against myself you know i'm like. Try to argue that as long as people believe in government it is necessary now we have to stop turning to violence to solve problems and then you know when we train ourselves as a society, to seek the non-violent solutions before we seek the violent solutions. That would be the point at which government is truly obsolete so how do we move forward again localization decentralisation of power in United States very easy eliminate the federal government

51:08 eliminate state government, excuse me. Eliminate the federal government with an orderly transition to making the states the highest form of government in the land and not fundamentally change the paradigm just localize to that extent But then you're gonna see people are going to be so much happier and more prosperous they're gonna wanna keep going with that process once the states become stable with the elimination of federal government that might be. Several years i might be a couple decades then you can eliminate the state governments and get down to the counties and eventually down to the communities

51:45 where systems of violence and central control will at least be very well custom tailored to the needs of that community. And in most places they will be very quickly made completely obsolete by nonviolent systems that will push the remaining government systems out of the way. Well, maybe part of my problem is the definition of violence? I mean would you consider any requirement to live within a community to be violent What do you mean any requirements over the community? I mean, yeah if we had a small community and said okay to live in this community because we have developed A clean nice system and it's got a good infrastructure network. So we say in this community If you live here We take 5% of your wages And we put that towards public good and if you don't like that That's okay But you cannot live here You cannot use the community we built To make your wages

52:40 built on this premise. So if we say that instead of locking them in a cage at gunpoint, instead we just move them out of the community is that still violence? I mean is there any way to have requirements in a community and not equate it to violence If you do it with property and do it properly ethically the system that your describing is entirely viable so. Let me see if i can tease out some scenarios in how this might work that would kind of answer your question here so if you let's say your starting from scratch right you take ten families and you go out in the middle of an unpopulated area. And you put up a big fence around it and you say that we are creating, organization here where we are all home studying this land we're claiming this land and we are creating a voluntary collective which we are all members

53:39 that has rules of a democratic system where majority rules and the institution owns this land so no individual actually owns their home or their land within that system then it's entirely voluntary to participate. And then whatever is voted on as long as people are free to leave would be entirely ethical. And the collective, thus legitimate owners of that property would be able to exercise their ownership by expelling people from their property and that would be a basis to create the kind of system you're describing. It's only a problem

54:25 if you say well our community includes you and your like if im sitting here on my land right now in juniper wood ranch, can u come and buy the properties around me and say well now adam urin my community so we're gonna claim that to impose a rules on you understand this is this is my property it's my rules on this i'm not signing any agreement to be part of your collective as long as you're not violating my property do that then then you're welcome to do that. I think in practicality as we move forward to a stateless society, these things aren't going to be geographically based. I think that's a rather limiting hangover of the pre-internet age and the status paradigm. So when you say like, you want to community where we pool our resources in order to do X Y & Z, i think it's going to be much more virtual networks by which that happens rather than arbitrary geographical areas but if you want to do it in a geographical area

55:25 get back to example what do you do with new york city right i mean you get down you dissolve the state of new york the counties and everything you get down to new york city. I don't think u can untangle that not interwoven property claims, i think we're gonna end up with this is a call it did the government in the city of new york but it would essentially be a pretty would have to become a private corporation that says no we own land this corporation owns the land Within this territory i think that would be how you transition cities is there instead of trying to make a city fully private property based at the individual level it becomes collectively owned but instead of having the system of voting where anybody shows up and you have, you know the government system its more like shareholder system.

56:14 You know if you own a property on the island of manhattan today and corporation is now gonna give you an extra voting right as the owner that property but now your not the owner u r the, are you sort of honor it there have to be another legal structure for if you own apartment building in manhattan. and Manhattan became, or New York became a not government. We wouldn't pretend to say that you own that property we would say that you are, you know, you have custodial ownership, you're the custodial owner and that's the reality of owning property today under this status system that is so destructive. You know I own according to government I own the 11 acres that I'm sitting on right now in Arizona but I have to pay property taxes. Right yeah well if i'm paying

57:02 if that's the case i'm a renter like what's what's just understand let's be honest about it. If you have a system that's honest about that then you can have a voluntary system that's gonna meet human needs better than this no illusion of ownership under status system, Oh yeah, I mean believe me that is a struggle i'm having right now because at that point where i'm sick of throwing away two grand a month on rent and looking at trying to get into property ownership and then realizing you know you never really own that property. It's so much better! Right? So it is... It IS better! Well hey make the leap dude if I can do anything to encourage you make the leap help start this movement of people who are you know for me this is like from the Ayn Rand

57:42 Novel atlas drug i'm not a randy and by any stretch don't misunderstand me but she introduced a lot of important ideas into the human paradigm. And one of them is this idea going gold that you know when u feel like your suffering or anyway limited under violent oppressive system just peacefully non violently withdraw your support to say no i'm not, I have a pretty good bachelor's degree. I'm reasonably smart dude, if i wanted to go play the corporate game and make money and live that mainstream American lifestyle and have toys and pay mortgage and all that...I could!

58:22 But I would rather not live with the guilt once you understand that when you pay taxes, when you pay rent, when your productive for the system your contributing to the violence of this system. You know i would rather do what im doing now and maybe compromise my overall material wealth in order to know that Im not contributing to violence thats gonna make the world a worse place for future generations So for myself, I bought a piece of land. It's not perfect. You know i started building without a permit and now working through the permitting process negotiating a good deal in that i think yeah im halfway to food independence here with chickens and turkeys and working on you know building a greenhouse have independence for fruits and vegetables as well and it's uh... you know what's the process is uh... it's sort of

59:15 I don't wanna say a, well it's the struggle is more in psychologically breaking free. Like i'm actually sitting in an RV trailer right now. I live in a trailer. I've been living in a trailer for the last two years and i'm living on my land while i build a house! And you know that's...I'd rather be living modestly this way than be living more ethically then the alternative Very eloquent, man. I appreciate that too So just to put a finer point on this thing you did wrap up A tour to gauge support for a 2020 presidential run and your campaign seems to be based on the question of what happens when a person runs for president only To dissolve the presidency itself and that is provocative and interesting Before we go tell us about the tour and maybe how much support you actually did find out there for that kind of idea

1:00:09 Will it was amazing and compared to last year's tour when we were just focusing on the book and we had a lot more time to organize. We actually were still able to on average double our turnouts at every event, And that was huge and people are really enthusiastic about this. The platform is simple, I say that i'm running for not president and mean that very seriously in the sense that the platform is to sign one executive order that immediately declares the federal government of no authority whatsoever and includes me resigning from the presidency to be custodian of the federal government and appoints department heads to each major department for the purpose of dismantling or transitioning that agency.

1:00:55 So the only power that i would retain as custodian would be to replace the heads of departments as necessary if they get sick or die, aren't following the preordained plan of disillusion. And some agencies are very easy you know what do you with the IRS well for feeling nice we decide not cut people's hands off send everybody home sell the building you know so the buildings not that complicated similarly like department of education does not run a single school does not educate a single child is a federal bureaucracy that can simply go away,

1:01:32 Department of Veterans Affairs. There's no reason it has to be eliminated as long as we separate it from funding through taxation, so what I would do with the VA is spin it off as a private charity where every single veteran has one share voting right in the VA and its allowed to continue as long as it can sustain itself by donations, by you know the existing use of the hospitals and physical properties that are controlled by the VA certain welfare agencies can't be dissolved. They should be localized and there needs to be a serious, cautious administrative process if only of handling all the data from handing it to the federal agencies to the state agencies that would take over those functions in each state. The Department of Defense

1:02:22 huge logistical hurdle what do you do with the nuclear weapons i think that's something that deserves a separate program to say or so i should say uh... a separate new department head whose responsibility is to immediately dismantle and excuse me immediately disarm and as soon as safely possible dismantled the entire nuclear arsenal so there are different things it did not have to be done with different agencies Buy a large is a pretty straightforward process to see how we manage this just say well the federal government is no longer gonna be the supreme or the highest form of government now it's gonna be the states if anything what were doing the same look

1:03:03 We can do this the easy way or the hard way the hard ways we ignore the problems of the federal government the hard way is that we bury our heads in the sand and pretend it this is just gonna go away and wait for the collapse and then hope that, governments spares us and its violent death roses a desperately clings to power as opposed look what's face up to reality and knowledge these problems Let's disown the debt. I mean, the national debt is the greatest mark of unsustainability of this system. Let's get out of the dollar altogether! Let's transition to Bitcoin or cryptocurrency of some kind... ...or locally backed currencies rather than the Federal Reserve System rip-off."

1:03:43 So there's so much else that goes along with this, but as complicated as the process might be it is still a lot easier than a Roman Empire style collapse. It is a lot easier than if the dollar collapses unexpectedly and we don't have something to fall back on. This campaign is not just about the message of the campaign itself but inspiring people to live more ethically and go galt in ways they can withdraw their material support for government violence Well said. Man, Adam when it comes to the analysis of the current system all its problems its control schemes and abuses we couldn't be more aligned you know I am just less confident in the whole self-government's model but I do appreciate your position and your passion for it before we really go remind the people where they can get your free book and get involved with what you're doing if they like these things are saying

1:04:36 No thanks again great i really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and your audience have such a thoughtful conversation about these things in it's beautiful to be able to feel how so many, compassionate people are applying their intellect like u art move humanity fordham it's really an honor to be apart of that so my website is the freedom line dot com v. Freedom line calm if you go there, you can plug into everything I'm doing all the social media and The book is free there. You can get it in every digital format possible including the audiobook So I hope you'll check that out. You can check out my youtube channel We recently hit 50 million views and 200 thousand subscribers so the market has spoken I can be at least moderately entertaining as well on the internet check it out and

1:05:25 Uh, if you want to get involved in the presidential campaign four years in advance as we're building this organization now go to the forums and sign up with your contact info. And please join my email list as well there. So thank you very much. Great. Yeah, you got it man. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Keep fighting the good fight out there. You too. Alright guys adam kokesh big thanks to him honestly he was super nice and friendly. How's a bit of an asshole this episode i can say that i interrupted in ranted, and i have a lot of people get away with saying a lot of stuff on the show but for some reason this is the day i decided to dig my heels then i haven't been a lot of respects i do agree with libertarians but just think that they have a big blind spot which is all i was trying to get at

1:06:15 It speaks to that point we've talked about before, about our tendency to want singular explanations. I think that's what positions like this are sometimes but the higher side chats is largely built around letting a guest make their case for their perspective without the bias of a host right? At least to some extent And obviously i just couldn't let things go in this one i don't know so i should and do apologize to adam he dealt with all that and remained a lot more cool than i was. In my defense, I didn't track him down to get him here to argue. Someone associated with them who was a fan of both the higher side and Adam's work asked about having him on and i said sure because i do like a lot about what adam says so there is a slight distinction there right? I mean i'm not a total asshole...I don't know but another reason i should apologize is because i've been holding onto this show for way too long. I'm pretty sure we recorded it in December

1:07:13 But we had Pizzagate pop up, which we dedicated some shows to. I wanted to get Austin on for the 2017 Astrological Assessment before we got too far into the year and then because things were just so heavily political... ...I wanted to get back to weird stuff before putting out another episode that gets into worldviews and politics and that kind of stuff Also my primary recording failed So I had to rely on my backup which still sounds pretty good to listeners But it does put both voices on one track rather than separating them, which makes it a lot harder to edit and clean up. So that did play a role too because I do tend to take the easy road a lot but I feel particularly bad because Adam was dealing with some public drama at the time That's something we got more into in the second hour but he was very open and personal with a lot of stuff And then to lag on the release like this... It's just rude

1:08:11 shouldn't keep him hanging like that. So I fucked up! Of course, I still have my issues with that paradigm of self-governance and extreme libertarianism and anarcho capitalism but i could have handled it way better if he ever wants to come back and do it again and talk more about the common ground that we share like maybe we should have...I'd be down to do it I do agree with the basic idea that things work themselves out and we don't need government to be a babysitter. And i even think self-governance is a great personal philosophy, I mean I try to keep the system at arm's length as much as possible but I don't know if you can scale that up for everyone? I don't want a wild west! I don't want everyone to have to be armed to defend their own shit! That level of responsibility I think is very extreme

1:09:00 Adams contention is that a big caveat to this system working instead of have to coincide with the cultural evolution. But that's a huge caveat i feel like that saying if everyone just acts right self governance will work well any system will work if everyone acts within certain parameters but they just don't. And there cannot be a society of absolute freedom because groups of people have to find compromises, someone's right and freedom to host a drum circle at 3am will always conflict with someone else's right to have peace and quiet in a good night sleep

1:09:37 I don't like cops or big government, but only because there is a threat of a ticket or confrontation with police or eviction do people generally abide by curfews. Take away all the recourse and some people will just be assholes! Public shaming isn't always going to be enough." Sometimes people get drunk and start acting stupid and they kinda need to have the threat of recourse, of consequences. I mean listen to me i guess i sound like im speaking at a bilderberg conference but i really just dont know that you can awaken the masses People like us listeners we've always been outliers right? Alternative thinkers its kind of in the definition

1:10:21 And I'm well aware of government's role in market manipulation and making monopolies, but again it is a what came first the chicken or the egg kind of thing. And i don't think unbridled free market shit works! People buy cigarettes and fast food when they know its bad the beast just gets bigger. I guess the questions you have to ask yourself revolve around if you think it's okay for there to be some requirements in a society. And if someone doesn't want to meet those requirements, how do you handle it? The perspective we talked about today considers all taxes to be theft under the threat of violence. Personally I don't mind paying some taxes. I would like more control over where it goes but how do you handle that if someone doesn't want to pay? Would it be reasonable in a certain town to say

1:11:11 If you don't wanna pay, you can't live within these city limits because this city is badass because we all contribute and make sure the streets are clean. Don't have potholes We got some bad ass landscaping here All the kind of stuff that makes nice towns nice I mean you know how they are Maybe you've ever dealt with a situation like subdivision that has certain requirements to keep it nice, to keep the home values high. What if somebody in your neighborhood just wants to trash their lawn? Have huge piles of garbage everywhere because they're just lazy is that there right? It brings down your property value I mean these are just little things that happen in our society there has to be some kind of common ground another question would be

1:11:58 Is a regulatory agency like the FDA fundamentally a bad thing, or is ours just run by a corrupt revolving door of lobbyists rooted in a deceptive agenda and false sense of security unleashed on an ignorant populace? Is zero regulation the answer, or is something altruistic and fairly minimalist actually possible if we were to care Though I do like localization of government. I wish we had localization of companies too! Nobody ever talks about getting rid of international corporations, are they not an aspect to the globalist agenda? Are they not the ones that choke out small businesses and require these gross factory farm processes to stock their 50 000 stores worldwide? I don't know

1:12:45 I just take that Robert Anton Wilson approach, that the map is not the territory and no map is going to cover it all. Meaning what looks good on paper doesn't always apply to the real world and no ISM is gonna cover all situations and make everyone happy But I don't want to just sit here and make a bunch of points that can't be responded to now that our guest is gone. That's not really fair, to keep it going. But I don't think anything that I said would surprise someone who has listened for a long time whether you think i'm wrong or not but again with Adam we do agree more than we disagree so I was a bit of a dick today sorry man! I hope people who DO agree with Adam will let him know they enjoyed hearing him on the higher side

1:13:29 Another a lot of anarcho capitalists listeners. Hopefully you see what I've been trying to get at. If not, we can agree to disagree but thanks for listening In the Plus show...I was even more of a dick But also Adam shared some fairly intense personal stuff We talked about lessons that he learned from his time in the military industrial and prison complexes The difficult challenges Adam's been dealing with in the last year The true difference between justice and punishment And how we've been propagandized to confuse the two A lot of solid stuff, and I really did enjoy his book too. Remember guys it is free! So do get yourself a copy of Freedom and i'll see you next time... I am gonna get out of here Your move multinational monsters globalist vampire squids and out-of-date authoritarians You're fucking... They built my little M out of some crazy garbage

1:14:31 Called the blood of the exploited working class They've overcome their shyness Now we're calling them your highness And the world screamed, save me THC They destroyed the bonds of friendship and respect Between the only people left Who'd even look them in the eye And make a fortune Off the same ones that they tortured And the world screams Save me, THC Let's look for Jesus Some will say Mr. Jesus is so far away You're the only one who can tell me if it's true There are sergeants too

1:15:53 They built a little out of some crazy garbage Called the blood of the exploited Working clave overcome their shining Now we're calling them your highness And the world screams Save me, THC Save me, THC